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So, welcome, Yevgeniy. Very excited to have you in the podcast as one of the persons who
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actually initiated the whole idea of gathering the IT community in Korea. And actually, that
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might be the first question. Why would you think that, you know, IT community is something
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really important to have in Korea? And why would people, in your opinion, want to join
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the IT community and, like, actively participate in it? Well, how did this idea pop in your
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mind, like, that we need an IT community in Korea? And maybe you just wanted to be a part
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of some community, right? So how did that come to be? Well, I know that you were concerned
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with IT people not having, you know, people to go to and actually talk with, and, like,
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not having fun maybe and having, like, maybe being isolated in Korea in some way or being
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isolated internally, just being, you know, very, how to say, introverted. So are you
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an introverted person yourself? No, no. I think I’m half introverted, half extroverted.
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Depends on people who I’m together with and depends on how much beer I’m drunk. We’re
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gonna have some beer after that, right? Yeah, definitely. Let’s go. So we were talking once,
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right, in the, yeah, some place in a Shisha bar, to be precise. We were talking about
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you were so passionate about, like, creating a community of IT specialists, like, you know,
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bringing them together and engaging them, making some space for them to talk to each
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other to network. So once we created that community, what did you feel? Yeah, so I think
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it’s great. I think there’s, like, the huge opportunity and the huge potential for all
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people who are involved in the IT industry here in Korea. Like, when I was going through
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the LinkedIn, I actually saw a lot of different people who were working in Naver or Coupang
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or, like, some other big tech companies. So I felt, like, if we combine all of these people
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together, there will be, like, a really huge team who can make some new things that haven’t
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been done before by nobody. So yeah, I think there’s a great opportunity here. Well, talking
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about the things that haven’t been done before, we together made a chatbot called SkyFetch,
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right? And the SkyFetch chatbot, first of all, like, what would you describe it like?
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What was your description, idea of SkyFetch and what was it supposed to, like, the problems
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it was supposed to resolve for people? Yeah, well, so ideally, if, like, SkyFetch is the
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service for, like, people who are traveling from one place to another place and also for
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another person who needs to get, for example, some delivery or, like, quick parcel to get
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delivery from one place to another place. So, like, travelers can leave, like, can create
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their posts in our SkyFetch app. And consumers, like, people who need to get delivery or something,
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they can actually meet those people, see their posts, can connect with them, like, ask if
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they can make some delivery, like, deliver their parcels or documents, like, either for
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free or for some fee that they will come up with. Yeah, like, this, like, sort of the
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service which will connect both people, these types of people. Yeah.
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Well, like, did it take off? Did it, was it successful, in your opinion, the SkyFetch
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or did it teach you something? Like, in what ways would you say it was successful and in
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what ways it wasn’t? Yeah, so, actually, it taught me a lot. Like,
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I’m still learning a lot of new things even though we partially stopped this project.
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But yeah, we actually developed the MVP and it is ready for use. I mean, it was ready
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for use, but once we started promoting this service, we actually realized that it’s really
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difficult to implement, like, marketing strategies to attract new customers. So yeah, like, the
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technical stuff itself is not the only thing which will bring some success to your company,
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to your project. Yeah. So marketing stuff is really important.
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So would you say that if there was, you know, indication that people actually need this
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service after the initial, you know, results, would you say that it’s feasible and viable
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to develop it further or would you want to, like, stop and actually let it, you know,
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die, like, the service itself? Yeah, so based on our results, we could
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not attract, like, millions or billions of users, but I don’t know if there’s potential,
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like, marketing strategy that could be done and as a result, like, which could bring to
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our service, like, millions of users. I don’t know if there’s, like, this marketing strategy
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exists or not, but yeah, I think there’s always opportunity, which is, like, never give up,
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you know. Never give up, never back down.
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Yeah, never back down. As a result, you’ll achieve your goal, but that’s not guaranteed,
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I guess. So I would say that from my perspective,
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like, SkyFetch was a good idea and it was really difficult, like, to really market it,
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like, to prove to people because remember, we went to KakaoTalk and we started, like,
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posting some advertisements, like, yeah, come to SkyFetch, you know, because a lot of people
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there made, like, postings, like, oh, yeah, I’m flying from Seoul to Almaty, let’s say,
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and I want to deliver some parcels for some reward and people were, like, exchanging this
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back and forth doing, like, via KakaoTalk and we thought initially that, yeah, it’s
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going to, like, it’s going to blow up. There are a lot of people who need our services,
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right? So we just thought that if we put out the service out there, people are going to
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use it, but the picture was, like, the reverse of it because once we started promoting it,
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we realized that people kind of don’t want to switch and the main problem is that people
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who deliver the parcels, they really were reluctant to go to our service and I honestly,
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like, up until now, I can’t really precisely figure what exactly was the problem. I can’t
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pinpoint that. I can say that just generally my feeling is for them, the incentive of going
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to some kind of, like, chat bot was not as big to abandon KakaoTalk altogether and, like,
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the chat altogether and, you know, stop going there and go to our service. So how do you
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think, like, yourself, you used to, like, send something back to Kassastan or, you know,
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like, you actually went to Kassastan, right, to deliver something. Would you yourself as
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a courier, like, use the service or what kind of, like, pain point maybe you see now in
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retrospect, like, looking back at the past, what was the problem? Because I still don’t
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fucking know. You can swear. Nobody gives a fuck. Yeah. Or IT people. Who the fuck cares?
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Go ahead, man. Yeah, I also, yeah, I also don’t know what, like, what’s the main reason.
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But, yeah, I agree that there was not enough incentive for couriers, like, for flyers to
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go to our service and use it. Yeah, I guess, like, in general, like, like, if we are talking
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in terms of, like, abstraction, that’s the main reason why they didn’t use it because
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they actually didn’t want to use it. They didn’t have incentives. But if we try to dig
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into the details, I also, I haven’t figured out why that happened. Like, I mean, what
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was the problem in, like, in the details? I also don’t know about that. Yeah. Yeah,
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I’d say it’s one of the main problems of IT industry in general. Like, building something
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that nobody actually needs in real world and that cannot, like, that has really low potential
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to attract investments. And I watched a couple, like, podcasts from, especially from people
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in AI industry. They were, you know, talking about how to actually, like, approach this
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problem, how to approach product management itself, product creation itself, like software
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management. So they said, some of them said, like, they don’t even touch code, they don’t
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even start coding before they secure, like, five to 10 investors initially, because they
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know exactly that half of them are going to drop. And I thought, well, that’s really smart,
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but that also requires a lot of, you know, initial kind of authority to be able to do
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that. Because if you come out to investors and just sell them air, sell them, like, the
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idea and the team that can implement this idea, then you have to be of some kind of
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background to actually do that. And it’s quite difficult. But I think, like, next time, next
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time we develop something, what do you, what do you, do you think is a viable strategy
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to actually approach investors first, and try to pitch the idea first, and then only,
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like, start developing? Or is it something that, you know, you want to test out yourself,
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try other approach?
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Yeah, so I think there are, like, two different worlds. One is the objective world, where
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there’s really, like, the demand, or there’s, like, the need for some products or some services.
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And another world is just our own subjective world that we are thinking about ourselves.
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So I think in terms of, like, Skyfish, we just, we couldn’t, we couldn’t see the clear,
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like, objective world. We were just thinking through our own subjective world. We mistakenly
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thought that Skyfish would be a great thing. Well, in reality, probably, Skyfish was not
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that really was in demand in the objective world. So I think before we tried to create
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something new, like the next service, we first need to make sure that we are, our mind, like,
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corresponds and aligns with the objective world. Yeah, where we can actually see that
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some product or service is really in need, like, among people. And so I think we need
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to work on ourselves so that we are not, like, in the delusional world, but rather think
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more clearly without any, like, subjective biases, maybe. Yeah. I think, well, that’s
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personally my goal for the next, like, uncertain amount of time to try to get rid of this subjective
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perception of the world, which is delusional, I think, and try to think more, like, objectively.
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Yeah. Well, that’s personally my strategy for the next uncertain amount of time. I don’t
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know.
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Oh, by the way, you can move the mic around if you’re not comfortable. It’s okay. So I
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thought I actually heard a lot of people say that, you know, software development is like
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this, in many cases, that you develop something that people don’t need because you think,
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as you said, like, you think subjectively. And yeah, that’s a really great point. But
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what I wanted to ask you was, from software development standpoint, I remember you were,
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you approached this problem very creatively of not knowing how to exactly develop chatbot
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and the interface and everything. And you mentioned using AI and the chat GPT in that.
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So what do you think about, like, it’s such a big question in all about, there are so
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many faces of it, like, oh, yeah, what do you think about AI in general? And how do
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you think your profession is going to change with AI? And do you think that, like, software
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developers are going to be, you know, obsolete in the future, like not needed in the future?
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Like, it’s such a big question. I don’t know where to begin. But let’s begin with how did
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you come up with this idea of using chat GPT for programming? And whether you like this
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experience, whether it was actually useful?
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Yeah, I hope that AI will replace like software developers.
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You hope? Why do you hope so?
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There’s like this blind, like, people actually software development is not that difficult,
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you know, it’s just you just need to get used to programming. Like, there’s nothing difficult.
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You just need to repeatedly do the same stuff like every day and don’t give up. Like, that’s
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it. So, yeah, like, these days, software developers don’t get that much salary as they used to
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get like, maybe five or 10 years ago. So the market is slowly getting into its real, like,
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environment. So yeah, I think software developers will not be the type of job like occupation,
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which will get a lot of money because actually, in reality, like, if you if you spend your
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like maybe a couple of days with actual software developers, you will realize that maybe 80
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or 90% of them, they’re just like chatting with chat GPT or searching some stuff like,
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you know, from Stack Overflow, just copy past already existing solution. So, well, probably
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they’re like 10 or 12% of people who are working on such things like chat GPT. Well, yeah,
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they’re really great, like software developers, but the rest of them, maybe like 70 or 80%,
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they’re just doing the same thing every day, which has already been done, like 100 or 70
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million of times before. So they’re just copy past the same stuff. You just need to know
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what you need to copy and where you need to paste in your code. So yeah, that’s it. And
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it’s not like the job that can earn like six figures or bring a lot of money. So yeah,
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well, personally, I think like marketing is not easier than software development, I think.
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But yeah, in the market, actually, the software developers get a little bit more than marketers.
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So I think AI will slow down, like software development, I mean, software developers,
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like market, like in the real situation, which it has to be in. Yeah, that’s it. Like for
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me, I also use like chat GPT to copy past code. And as I said, you just need to know
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what part you need to copy and where you need to paste it.
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That’s a great perspective. I actually like you grazed upon the marketing part, because
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that’s interesting, because I’m now working in digital marketing, you’re working in software
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development. And I would say, yeah, definitely software developers get more money than we
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do. Yeah. And that’s really hard to admit. But it’s painful to admit. But it is truth.
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And I thought, yeah, like, from my perspective, also, currently, like our company, our client
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company to it’s going through a lot of restructuring, a lot of like internal change. It’s not a
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secret. Everyone’s going through a lot of internal change. And like Fang, even they’re
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going through a lot of like, you know, layoffs and higher and fires because of AI. And I
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feel that both now that you said that software developers are also doing like 80% of them
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are doing really manual tasks, really something like copy paste, which is also I understand
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is difficult to me, right? Because you’re a software developer, you kind of like shoot
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yourself in the leg here. But still, it is truth. And AI is coming for our jobs, I would
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say. And even if software developers are, you know, in danger, then what to tell about
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marketers because marketers also, like literally my job for the past year was copying paste
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things. And I was a project manager. So I was literally copying and pasting things like
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70%, at least 70% of the time was just copying and pasting things. And that’s interesting
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also, because my next question is, I know that your background is not in software development,
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you graduated from business administration, right? Like bachelor’s in business administration.
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And that’s fascinating for me, because for several years, I’ve been looking for an opportunity
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to change from my background from very like, also finance related, you know, management
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related background into software development. And now you are here, like you are the person
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that I aspire to become. And how did you do it? Because there are a lot of people like
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us who want to change their career. And I’ve seen like, them struggling a lot. And for
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you, it seems like it just went naturally, you just nature changed. I never knew that
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you were of business background before we actually talked about like how you came to
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be and I saw your LinkedIn, I was like, Oh, you have like you have bachelor’s in business
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administration that’s not related to IT development, IT like at all. So what was the path like?
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Is it difficult? Like is it worth it?
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Yes. So as I said, like software development is not that is not the job which actually
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requires like the high IQ level. Wow. Yeah, actually. People think that software developers
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really smart. But no, they’re actually people who didn’t give up. Now when they couldn’t
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like run their first Hello World code, or maybe when they couldn’t like, write the correct
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if and else statement in their function. So that actually happened to me. But people actually
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Well, most people say that I’m super like subborn. So I probably agree with that. So
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when I actually failed my first code, or when I actually failed my first like if statement,
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I think I didn’t give up on that and just kept going. And I think the reason there’s
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there isn’t that I could learn my first job as software developer, because you know, I
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actually don’t have like, that high IQ, like people who are working in open AI or some
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other stuff. So I think you just don’t need to give up. Just keep going, keep going. Like
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to do the same stuff every day. And yeah, actually, you will get more chances to learn
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your first job. So yeah, and actually, that’s the reason why I’m saying that software developers
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are not that great people like super smart people. They’re just people who didn’t give
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up. And that’s it. They, they’re probably not smart people. But they’re really like
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subborn. They really didn’t give up. And that’s it. They actually like I have some friends
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who started coding, like who started to learn code. But when they first faced the problem
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with the error, like for example, function or with their code, they actually thought,
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well, I’m super like, I’m stupid for this. I’m not born for this. But actually, I have
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also experienced this experienced this feelings. And I just compare them with me. So they just
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they just went. They just gave up coding because of their emotions because of their feelings
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that I’m not born for this. But if you put aside your emotions, if just keep like retry,
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do the same stuff like every day, every day, you will actually realize that writing a function
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is not something that requires like the high IQ level, but it’s just something that you
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have already done before. And you just, you know, like automatically do these things.
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Not because you’re super smart, but because you have trained this mindset of writing like
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some code and you just automatically without any intention, just mechanically write this
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code. So it’s, it’s not related to IQ. I think it’s related to like, automatically do the
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same thing like every day, every day. Yeah. And that’s the secret that probably most people
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know but they don’t believe that it actually is actually the like the main secret, the
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main reason why, like how people get their first job. But yeah, I mean, myself actually
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went through this pass. So yeah, I think this is true. You just need to do the same thing
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like the same stuff every day, every day, like you will fail. But like regarding the
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failures, you just need to put aside your emotions and keep going. Yeah.
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Great stuff. Really motivational. I mean, listening to you right now, I caught myself
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thinking that maybe I don’t really want to change into IT that much. I mean, if AI is
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coming for our jobs, it’s kind of like changing the whole paradigm. But speaking about jobs,
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you mentioned like your first job, landing your first job. And probably there is a lot
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of like emotion, a lot of your, you know, memories in there and a lot of lessons you
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learn from there. So my question would be, probably you experienced some kind of imposter
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syndrome, right? So how did you land your first job? And like, how did you get rid of
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this syndrome? Yeah, so actually when I landed my first job,
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it was a small project. I don’t remember if I had like this imposter syndrome, but I
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realized that this is the project that like, for example, junior software developers like
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me could actually get to work on this project. So yeah, I think it was, well, in addition
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to this, like the financial budget was not that high, was not that big for that position.
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So I just got the job with minimum like salary. So I think because of that, I didn’t have
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like imposter syndrome. For example, if I had like super huge salary while being junior
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software engineer, then yeah, probably I could get like the imposter syndrome. But since
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I was getting relatively small amount of money, so yeah, I think I didn’t feel that imposter
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syndrome. Yeah, so I think if you’re junior software engineer, but you get super ideal
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environment, like you get super high salary, you get a lot of corporate benefits, I think
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in this case, you can get into situation like where you have like imposter syndrome. But
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since I was getting the minimum like salary, the minimum like corporate benefits, I think
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I didn’t have this imposter syndrome, you know, I think I’m not I’m not that experienced.
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I’m a junior software engineer. And I realized that I’m not I’m getting the benefits that
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I actually deserve for junior software engineers. So yeah, I think because of that, I didn’t
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have like this imposter syndrome problem.
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How did you land this job? Like, did you search on LinkedIn or in Saddam mean or what did
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you do? Yeah, actually, I just googled like full stack software engineer positions like
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no jazz or react developer, and just applied everywhere like in LinkedIn, and some other
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services I don’t even remember. Yeah, I just applied everywhere and everywhere. And some
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of them like replied, some of them ignored. But yeah, I think it was maybe LinkedIn or
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I don’t I don’t remember this website. I just I just applied everywhere I found like some
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job posting potings. Yeah, nowadays, do you use LinkedIn mostly?
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No, actually, I think it’s real like it’s real like a waste of time, or at least for
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software developers. Because yeah, I mean, like to search to apply not search like to
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apply through the LinkedIn. Because like, maybe 80% or 90% of job advertisements, like
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they are either like reposted or yeah, they’re just being like automatically reposted. And
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recruiters maybe don’t even check the submitted like resume and other personal information.
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But yeah, I think I think it would be better if you if you find some job on position, you
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probably would have much more chances if you go to their official like corporate website
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and check if this position actually exists on their website and apply through the corporate
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website, rather than applying through LinkedIn. Because I think there’s like too many like
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artificial bots in LinkedIn. And the information there is not actual up to date, I think.
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So as a junior developer, let’s say I just switched to it hypothetically, what kind of
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way? What’s the range of salary I can hope for in Korea?
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In Korea, I think it’s like, it’s the minimum probably, which maybe you will get something
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like 3 million won per month, per month, maybe net. Yeah.
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So like 40 million won per year, like about 36, 35?
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Yeah.
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Okay.
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I think so. Well, it’s not well, it’s not based on any facts. But yeah, I think so,
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based on some job posts that I seen on like Wanted or Saramin or Job Korea. Yeah, but
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it’s my assumption.
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So that’s after tax, right?
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Maybe.
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Well, after tax and before tax in Korea is not that much different. Not like in America,
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right?
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In the States, I heard it’s like up to 40% tax deduction. So you can make six figures
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on paper, but actually get like 60,000, like 100k yearly, but actually make 60,000 per
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year, which is, I think, insane. Like, yeah. So you landed your first job like that, like
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applying to LinkedIn and everything, right? What was the interview like? So did they ask
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you questions like, why did you fucking decide to switch? Did they interrogate you about
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that?
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No, actually, they didn’t. Because that project, as I said, they required some junior software
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developers. And it was a small startup. It wasn’t like super huge IT company. So they
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actually didn’t care about like your background as long as you have the bare minimum knowledge
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for junior software engineer, you could actually apply. Yeah. Yeah, I think if you’re the junior
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software engineer, and you didn’t graduate like super, like those Ivy League universities
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or some other universities where you were, I mean, like the computer science department
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is really popular. I think if you don’t have any experience, probably it would be even
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better to start your first job at startup and not applying for those like internships
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at Google. Well, actually you can, but I think in this case, you’ll get much more chances
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to land your job at startup. But actually, there’s a lot of people who completed their
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computer science degree at not like top universities, but still could land their job at Google or
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maybe like other fan companies. But in this case, you need to learn data structures and
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algorithms, you know, DSA, maybe like to solve a lot of problems on lead code. Yeah, I think
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that’s one of the ways to land the job at fan company. So, sorry, I lost my thought
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for a minute there. One of the best ways you said to land the job is like to go to startups,
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right? Yeah. And I was curious, like, because there are many ways to learn software development,
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and every university teaches it differently. And even there are some even like videos on
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YouTube that describe the full path to certain roles, for example, like web development,
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or people say like, Oh, you should start from this and then go to there and then go there.
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So what would you say, in your opinion is like, the best starting point for someone
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who just goes into software development and doesn’t know much, what’s the best starting
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point? And what is like the pathway as far as you can go? Just your opinion about that?
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I don’t think this roadmap will be valid because, you know, all of those things are probably,
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will probably be done by AI, like devian, or what is it like, AI assistant who will code. So I think,
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I think the roadmap for software developers should be restructured, because, you know,
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right now, I mean, so far, if you go to any video, they like all those videos will be like about the
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same stuff, about the same roadmap, and like you need to learn this, this, this, and that.
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But I think, since devian will come out soon, and AI is evolving, I think,
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the roadmap should be restructured. And actually, the requirements for software engineers will also
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be changed. Well, I personally cannot predict what those requirements will be. But it’s
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soon as we will see some like unusual requirements, I think based on these requirements, we need to
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come up with a new roadmap for software engineers, I think.
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Because you know, all of those like HTML, like CSS stuff will be like, like 95% done by AI. So,
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yeah, I think there will be some new technical requirements for software engineers,
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or maybe the entry level, like the entrance level will be much higher. Like, probably in the future,
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you will need to know so many things that right now like middle or senior software developer
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has. I don’t know. Yeah. But I think, yeah, this industry, like the entire job
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will be changed. And technical requirements will be changed as well for software developers in the future.
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I think so. What’s devian?
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There is AI assistant that’s like that, that will be created for the purpose of coding. So it’s not
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like super broad or general AI system. It’s like AI assistant for software development. Yeah.
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Do you think it has the potential to actually to become a software engineer?
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Do you think it has the potential to actually to become more than just an assistant and actually
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software develop, like develop software itself on its own?
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Do you think AI in general has this potential? Yeah. Well, right now the ChartGPT actually
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provides technical solutions in not all, but in some or most of the cases. But, you know, ChartGPT
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is not created for software development only, right? But if there’s like this AI system which will be
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created using only this technical, I mean, with this technical expertise, like it will
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go through the entire API documentation for each service, like React or Node.js or Java Spring.
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Yeah, I think it will be more specialized and customized for software development.
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Yeah, the main thing that it should always be up to date because now ChartGPT
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has the limited information, like in terms of time limits. Like previously it was
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only capable of handling information that was generated before like a certain period of time.
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But 2021, right? Yeah, something like that. But yeah, well, for this, for the software development
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industry, you always need to make sure that your AI system is up to date with the real information
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because, you know, the API documentation is changing every day. There may be some
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breaking changes where the function requires two parameters, but now it should get only one.
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You know, if you try to pass like incorrect number of parameters, there will be an exception, an error.
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So you need to make sure that your AI system is up to date with the real information.
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You know, you always need to support this AI system.
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I remember, if I remember correctly, Sam Altman announced, I mean, I watched it in Lex Friedman
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podcast, that ChartGPT 5 is going to come out this summer, right? So I’m actually quite
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worried by that because Altman said that he’s personally not really that fond of ChartGPT 4.
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He doesn’t think that it’s very impressive, but he thinks that ChartGPT 5 is something that he can be
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actually proud of. So that much difference, and they also don’t go with 4.5. They go with 5 directly.
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What would you think, because you might be like more knowledgeable in this industry than I am,
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about the possible capabilities of ChartGPT 5, and what I’m more interested in is
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should we start worrying really about job market?
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Well, no, actually ChartGPT 5 will not absolutely replace developers, and
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Davion can, I mean, potentially can replace, because at least, for example, if you are
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developing a program, you sometimes you need to manipulate over, well, not sometimes, but you
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always need to manipulate over your file system of the ChartGPT 5, and you need to have a
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manipulate over your file system of the computer that you’re working with. For example, you need to create
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or delete new files in your local folder. So right now ChartGPT cannot do that.
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You cannot provide the permission or access to your operating system to ChartGPT, so that it can
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delete or create some files or folders on your computer. But yeah, I don’t know how Davion will
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be developed. I don’t know if Davion will be the plugin to code editors, or if it will be the separate
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software which you need to install on your computer, or if it will be like ChartGPT, the browser
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extension, or the website, I don’t know. But at least you need to manipulate over your computer
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to send network requests or to update the file system. And right now neither ChartGPT 4 nor ChartGPT
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5 can do that, because ChartGPT is just the browser’s website. It doesn’t have the full access
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for your file system. So yeah, well, this ChartGPT file will not replace
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software engineers, but if once we have this AI software which will have this permission to file
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system, the end of the software engineers will be much closer from that time.
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Yeah, you touched this topic of manipulation and access. And pretty much everyone is aware of the
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conflict between Musk and Altman on the topic of making AI actually open source, open to the public.
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But I guess the underlying conflict is much wider here. It’s more about the bigger picture,
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whether AI is going to be capable of, whether AI is safe enough to actually give it so much power
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or not safe. And let’s actually make it a very existential question. Do you think that AI can
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and should control the world?
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Actually, I don’t think AI will be exactly the same as human brain.
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Yeah, as human brain because people are trying to create, I mean to copy and
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to make the copy of human brain. But how can you create exactly entirely the same thing of
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something that you actually don’t know about? The human brain is not the same as the human
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brain. It’s not started like 100%. So there’s a lot of unknown things and there’s a lot of
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things which people don’t know about the brain yet. So I think you cannot,
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I mean people will not create exactly the same brain, but artificial brain because they simply
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don’t have like 100% of information about how human brain actually works. But yeah, I think
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people will not create exactly the same artificial intelligence as human brain.
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Because you know, human brain is so complex. Yeah, it’s so complex. There’s a lot of
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questions which are not answered yet. But I think AI can help humans to find some answers on those
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questions, I think. Yeah, because honestly what I thought when I first was posed with this dilemma,
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like whether I think personally that AI should or should not take over the world, I thought that
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there was part of me that actually said, you know, it’s okay if it takes over the world
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because it’s kind of rational. But also at the same time, the next second I realized that AI
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for this purpose, it should have all the data about humans and also kind of not perceive humans
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as humans. It’s quite impossible for AI to really understand humans on this level, like really care
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about each life and everything because there are like a billions of us, you know. And for AI
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it’s more of a resource. So it’s kind of like, it would treat the earth like kind of strategy game.
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So maybe that is the worst part of AI being the, you know, in the head of the humanity.
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Because it is rational and being rational sometimes means not caring about people’s lives.
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So that’s something I thought from the standpoint of like ethics and everything.
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Like what if it just decides that, you know, we don’t need those people here, let’s just wipe
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them out using these people here. And like just calculate mathematically like, yeah, we’ll lose
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this much people, but they are like the least productive part of the, you know, the world and
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basically just like wipe out an entire nation or population. So I thought, well, yeah, that’s
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really like the laws of robotics really should be deeply embedded in AI in order to make it humane.
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And in that regard, do you agree with more like with Altman or with Musk on whether AI should be
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like open AI should open like their code or make it like close AI and rename themselves into closed AI?
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Actually, I think the reason why Elon Musk wants to make open AI open source is not because he
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actually cares about the humanity. I think he doesn’t care about the humanity that much as he
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proposes himself through this conflict with open AI. I don’t know what he wants to get from this
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situation, but he’s definitely not the person who cares about the society, about the world.
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And therefore, that’s why he wants open AI to be open source. I think that’s not the main reason
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I don’t know what’s the reason behind that, but he’s not that person.
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What makes you think so? That he’s not the person to care?
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No, I mean, like he’s not like the evil or he’s not a bad guy, but
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humanity is not his number one priority. I think. Well, I’m not saying that he’s super bad guy, but
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honestly, humanity is not his number one priority. His personal interests are his number one priority.
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Because if he actually cared about the humanity, well, the first thing he should do is to make the
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Tesla code open source. That would be much more step, like, I mean, much better step towards human
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safety. Because, you know, probably if he makes Tesla code open source, people will find a lot of
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bugs, like a lot of technical bugs, which probably can potentially cause a lot of current problems.
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It could actually cause a lot of like car accidents. And of course, this will hit a lot on Tesla’s
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stocks and he will probably lose some part of his net wealth.
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00:51:39,560 –> 00:52:01,560
Yeah, actually, like as I want to say, like, if a lot of open source projects are evolving slowly, you know,
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if you need to make some changes to open source product, you need to create the pull request. You need
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to get accepted by a lot of different people, depending on the policy of those like open source
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projects. For example, in some like open source project, they’re like a separate committee, which should
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accept those changes first and only after that, the changes will be merged. And sometimes this entire
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process can take even years, like a couple of years. So if the AI, if such successful project like
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open like CharGPD will become open source, we will, I mean, like the speed with which the AI industry
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is growing up will be slowed down. You know, you need to sacrifice the industry growth with safety.
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00:53:08,560 –> 00:53:18,560
You know, if you want to get the safe AI, you will need to sacrifice with the speed of evolution.
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It will slow down. Yeah, it will slow down. Definitely. I don’t know. It’s just my assumption. Yeah, you
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always need to sacrifice something, you know, to find those compromises, compromise solutions. Yeah,
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progress is like very rarely ethical. Yeah, like, will it break breakthrough things are breakthrough
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because they’re unethical. Most of the time. Well, I would I caught myself thinking like, if so many
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things are being invented, you know, we don’t we won’t even need to drive cars, probably ourselves in
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about 20 years, you can just buy an electric car like a Tesla, a self driving car. And that’s it. You
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don’t really need to steer the wheel anymore. I mean, it’s not now but in 20 years, probably we won’t
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be driving ourselves. Right. And I also thought that, well, if AI is going to come and AGI is going to
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be developed, and I think many people say that many of like people with authority with knowledge say
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that it’s going to be developed within the nearest 10 years. So within 10 years, by the time we are
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like 3540, we’re going to be driving driverless cars, we’re going to be working in a in the world
431
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where AGI is developed, let’s say, let’s say like not 10, like 20 years. Doesn’t it give you to me,
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it gives this kind of sense like, so what am I working for? What am I really striving for? I should
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probably go and learn something like being a carpenter, and actually like do something I enjoy, you know,
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maybe writing books, maybe doing something like that. From the society, from the technological standpoint,
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is not that productive. But from the creative standpoint, it’s kind of like makes sense because AGI,
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00:55:17,560 –> 00:55:25,560
no matter how smart it is, it might not be capable of the same creativity as people are. So do you
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sometimes have those thoughts, especially as a software developer, I thought, maybe you know like
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more and have more concerns about that. And in this case, what would your escape be from that?
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00:55:39,560 –> 00:55:45,560
Because honestly, it’s like difficult to realize that maybe you are replaceable in the nearest future.
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Maybe you won’t need to actually work, maybe you will need to do something else.
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00:55:50,560 –> 00:56:06,560
Yes, so actually I don’t agree with people who say that AI will make, well, of course it will make
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00:56:06,560 –> 00:56:16,560
people jobless, but there will definitely be created absolutely new type of jobs and occupation
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which haven’t existed before. Probably right now we cannot even imagine what new type of job will be
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00:56:26,560 –> 00:56:40,560
created as a result of this AI revolution. Because you know, like maybe like 20 years ago people
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00:56:40,560 –> 00:56:47,560
even couldn’t imagine there will be such jobs like prompt engineer or maybe like social media marketer
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00:56:47,560 –> 00:56:59,560
or bloggers. People always complain that technology will make them jobless, you know. But right now,
447
00:56:59,560 –> 00:57:08,560
if we take a look back then, we can see that yes, some jobs were eliminated by technologists, but right
448
00:57:08,560 –> 00:57:18,560
now we have a lot of new jobs which didn’t exist even like 20 years ago. But yes, actually a lot of
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people say that you don’t need to, I mean, if you haven’t discovered what’s your meaning and purpose
450
00:57:31,560 –> 00:57:40,560
in this life, if you haven’t found your job that you would actually do for free, then you should not
451
00:57:40,560 –> 00:57:52,560
attach yourself to the job because if AI will replace you, you should be adaptive enough to start
452
00:57:52,560 –> 00:58:01,560
learning new things, to get these new jobs. But yeah, if you have found the job that you would actually
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00:58:01,560 –> 00:58:10,560
love to do for free, then yeah, I think you don’t need to worry about that AI will replace your job.
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00:58:10,560 –> 00:58:22,560
Let’s say hypothetically you got fully replaced by AI, like there is no job in software development
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00:58:22,560 –> 00:58:25,560
or maybe you just don’t want to do it anymore. What would you do?
456
00:58:25,560 –> 00:58:34,560
Yeah, since I don’t have this job, as I said, that I would love to do for free, I probably haven’t found
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I don’t know what I want to do for free, like I haven’t found some people’s passion. Probably I will just
458
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spend some time to learn something new, to switch to another job.
459
00:58:50,560 –> 00:58:54,560
But you have no idea what is going to be like right now, right?
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00:58:54,560 –> 00:59:02,560
Yeah, actually I don’t attach myself to software development. Probably I will leave this job maybe next year
461
00:59:02,560 –> 00:59:13,560
or next month, I don’t know. I don’t have this idea in my brain that I will always be the software engineer.
462
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Like fixation. Great stuff.
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00:59:21,560 –> 00:59:35,560
I mean, okay, well, ladies and gentlemen, that was Yevgeny Pak for you. The prodigy, genius guy who graduated
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from the Bachelor of Business Administration and then completely turned around his career and mindset
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into becoming a software developer and is now exploring this field and constantly learning.
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So I’ve never seen anyone as motivated and as passionate about what he does.
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And even though he claims that he’s not really fixated on software development, it does seem often that he is
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01:00:05,560 –> 01:00:08,560
fixated on software development. That’s how passionate he is.
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So I hope that you extracted value and benefits and something new from this podcast.
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01:00:16,560 –> 01:00:21,560
And thank you. Thank you, Yevgeny, for being here.
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And I hope that we’ll get a chance to talk to you next time. Yeah, thank you.
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This was the episode with Yevgeny Pak.
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This was the episode with Yevgeny Pak.